Windows 7 - People Would Rather Pay For Windows Than Use Linux.

Asked By dont.pullou

08-Sep-07 10:05 AM

Linux is free.
Windows is not.
Linux has been free for a long time while Microsoft stagnated with
Windows XP.
Linux is free.
Microsoft released a bomb called Windows ME.
Linux is free.
Microsoft has released a controversial to some (IOW not too good)
operating system called Vista.
Linux is free,

So why the hell is Linux's desktop useage hovering around 1 percent?
Why does Microsoft still have 95 to 98 percent of the market?

After all, Linux is free.
Free is a good thing except when what you are getting for free isn't
so good afterall.

How many people know or know of people who have downloaded Linux,
tried Linux and then just as quickly dumped Linux and went back to
Windows?
It's a most common occurence.

So Linux is free, and Windows is not.

Where is Linux hiding?

Considering there are over 600 different Linux distributions and more
arriving by the day, you would think Linux would be all over the
place.
It's not.

Every year it's the same crap from the Linux advocates "This is the
year of Linux"
Yea, well I've been hearing that crap for the past 10 years or more
and it has never been, nor does the future seem to indicate that the
year of Linux will ever arrive.

Why?

08-Sep-07 10:21 AM

Because it is free no one has come up with a way to make money from it. If
no one is making money no one is selling it. If no one is selling it there
is no mainstream distribution channel. Someone could easily create a
distribution (Ubuntu is one) that could compete with Windows. To become
popular and gain significant market share they would have to spend a lot of
money marketing it. Where would they get a return from that investment? If
there was a great demand for it OEMs would be free to distribute it and not
pay the creator of the distro. The reason for slow linux adoption is not
because it is technically inferior to Windows. It is financial and societal.
The capitalist system doesn't work when trying to market something that is
free.

--
Kerry Brown
Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
http://www.vistahelp.ca

08-Sep-07 10:45 AM

On Sep 8, 10:21 am, "Kerry Brown" <ke...@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m>

Linux is already technically superior to Windows however Windows has
the base market share and quantity of users because of Microsoft's
lock in.
It's not easy for Windows, or any other OS using person to just jump
ship and switch. There is a lot of money and time invested in the OS
that they are currently running and the alternative has to provide a
clear and worthwhile advantage.
At the moment Linux does not provide such an advantage which is the
primary reason why even though being free it has been almost totally
ignored by Windows users, especially desktop users.

A good example of where Linux is a worthwhile alternative is in the
movie industry which is moving to Linux by storm.
Why?
Simple, they are moving off their highly proprietary and EXPENSIVE SGI
hardware platforms onto Intel/AMD based generic platforms.
Linux pundits like to use the movie studio example to show how Linux
is gaining ground against Windows but the truth is that these studios
were never using Windows much in the first place with the exception of
the front office.

So now you have average Joe with his entire life on his Windows
machine and Linux has to provide him with a reason to switch.
So what is it?
He already has tons of software and doesn't mind paying for additional
software if he needs it.
His Windows machine syncs to his PDA, his Phone, his mp3 player and
all his hardware and allows automatic updating of calenders, phone
lists, mp3 files and so forth. He likes iTunes and uses day trading
programs. He is also required to take corporate training, much of
which is CBT based.

Can Linux do all of that and do it easily and full featured?
Doubtful.

And THAT is why Linux is going no place on the desktop.

Money CAN be made with Linux by selling services, which is the same
way money is made with Windows. However you need to have people
willing to use Linux first and then start selling them services
contracts.
It's chicken and egg all over again.
I see Linux as a superior system but one that is going to ultimately
fail due to lack of interest.
It's a novelty now but  seeing as it has gone virtually no place in 10
years (desktop) I can't see a bright future for Linux.
Devon

08-Sep-07 10:47 AM

there is NO SUPPORT for a FREE program
there are very few programs written for Linux.
Windows OWNS 90% of the computer market.
No one's ever heard of Linux.
The AVERAGE computer user, knows how to use a keyboard, pictures and a =
mouse.
Linux needs technical knowledge just to set it up.
M$ Support =3D 24/7 but costly. And severely limited in technical =
expertise.
--=20
more pix @ http://members.toast.net/cbminfo/index.html

08-Sep-07 11:28 AM

For linux to become popular it has to be installed on OEM machines. This is
what initially drives the market. When a new Microsoft OS comes out the
previous is eventually made irrelevant because new computers have the new
OS. Most people don't care what OS they run. They walk into a store and buy
whatever the salesman gets the best commission on. Once they get home or
back to work they try to figure out how to use it. If new computers came
with linux they would figure out and use linux. This model isn't based on
selling a service but selling a product. OEM's aren't going to switch to
linux anytime soon for several reasons. The main one is money. They have a
lot of money invested in the Windows ecosystem. It would be very expensive
for them to switch to a different OS even if the OS was free. That brings up
the second problem. If the OS is free where is the incentive to develop it
into a product that can be sold? Yes, some money can be made selling
services to medium and big business. No, a lot of money can't be made
selling desktop services to the general public. Currently the general public
through OEM computer sales drives the desktop market.

I stand by my original assertion that there is no technical reason why linux
can't compete with Windows. The reason it isn't competing is because of the
way linux is licensed. In a capitalist society a free product can't compete
with a product that has an easy revenue stream. Everyone in the channel gets
a little piece of the pie so you have a very large channel with the company
at the top (Microsoft) controlling the channel. With linux there is no
channel. There is no one at the top controlling how the channel works. For
some one to get to this position would be impossible with the linux license.

I'm not saying this model is a good thing. In my opinion it is the way
things work. Perhaps the linux community should look to Apple as a model.
Someone needs to create a proprietary distro and spend 100's of millions
marketing it :-)

--
Kerry Brown
Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
http://www.vistahelp.ca

08-Sep-07 11:58 AM

When XP came out, there was no mention of Linux on XP.general. Now even
die hard MS fanboys are starting threads about Linux on this Vista
newsgroup. Why?

--
Alias
To email me, remove shoes

08-Sep-07 12:09 PM

Nail on head, simple as that.

08-Sep-07 12:16 PM

Gosh, I guess this "MVP" has not heard of making money from tech support.

--
Alias
To email me, remove shoes

08-Sep-07 12:20 PM

Because they like to annoy you!

08-Sep-07 12:25 PM

They are?
I do not think so!
Frank

08-Sep-07 12:30 PM

Didn't Linux go capitalist with Novell and Suse?

08-Sep-07 12:33 PM

Again very true, however one thing that may make a difference (I guess
several smaller things).

If people pay a lot of money out expecting the best and get something
like Vista ultimate, but then run into loads of problems with it public
opinion may be swayed. PO goes a long way in what the more knowledgable
user will ask for from OEMs. IOW a lot of friends ask me about buying a
new machine - what I say may influence them and their friends.

PO is also influenced when paying customers are branded as thieves by an
OS that assumes you stole it unless it can contact it's "Master", some
server in Redmond. I entirely accept that MS has a legitimate piracy
problem and has every right to act as they see fit in response, the same
way that even as a Microsoft MVP and customer (and computer enthusiast)
I have a right to complain about what I see as a major flaw with this
policy.

My company would not consider an OS upgrade in less than a year anyway,
expecting some glitches, and at this time they are in any case tied into
proprietary software that only runs on windows, However if the backlash
against Vista prompts those software authors to supply a version that
can use a non MS SQL and a server package that replaces W2003 the
company will switch to the lowest cost solution. The users will also
have to switch, that means the familiarity with the other solution will
grow, and people are not too stupid to learn, they just tend to take the
easy familiar path is all.

By rearranging so many things in Vista that people hace grown familiar
with in XP Microsoft HAS imposed a similar learning curve on all those
users.

The apple OS is much like Linux, Sun's Solaris is much like Linux, so
although they will not directly be about to support free Linux there is
a user base out there, which from a learning curve point of view is not
insignificant.

Microsoft's biggest threat from Linux is in fact Microsoft, and the
various methods they have for demonstrating their own weaknesses to the
maximum number of users at any time - it is generally easier to knock
down the most exposed target. I think they are in danger mostly from
their own policies, WGA representing a shot in one foot, Activation / GA
being a shot to the other foot and the more recent debacle with an
activation server failure (Their own software fell over?) just missed
the head.

08-Sep-07 12:40 PM

Idiot


Idiot


Who is "Windows?"


Idiot


And Linux is perfect for that and free.


Less than Vista you obviously never tried.


Also wrong, this group costs nothing and whilst some MVPs are nothing
more than shills and fanboys they are the noisy minority, just as in any
other group. Many MVPs advice and websites are far better than MS
official ones. Learn what to ignore and you won't be anywhere near so
misinformed, however it seem you chose to make a career out of being
misinformed so maybe you better get back to work?

08-Sep-07 12:40 PM

Doesn't annoy me at all. It is interesting that Linux is talked about
here almost as much as Hasta la Vista, Baby!

--
Alias
To email me, remove shoes

08-Sep-07 12:41 PM

Unbelievable, the old man is in a constant state of denial. Who started
this thread about Linux?

--
Alias
To email me, remove shoes

09-Sep-07 10:31 AM

But yet if you read Linux groups from a year ago you will find that many
people will claim that it works fine for them. That is unfortunately
another poor trait of Linux groups in general. Linux always seems to work
fine for the Linux users yet these same people seem to have horrible
problems with Windows.
Linux advocates have been claiming for years that Linux fonts are fine yet
it has just been recently, like the last 2 years or so where the Linux
fonts have started to look good. Printing is another area where Linux users
claim it just works. Sure it does, if you happen to own a Postscript or
possibly HP printer which traditionally have worked reasonably well with
Linux. Up until recently, printer support for Linux has been terrible.
Even Eric Raymond had problems making CUPS work.

http://catb.org/~esr/writings/cups-horror.html

Yet there was the Linux community making all these wild -works for me-
claims just like they generally do.

Web browser plugins are another horror story, as you have found out.
Depending upon the distribution, some work rather well these days but that
was not always the case and once again the Linux advocates were claiming it
works fine for them so it must be user error.

People pay for Windows rather than use free Linux because their time is
valuable and they don't feel like being treated to lies when they ask a
question in a Linux group.

08-Sep-07 12:48 PM

Ah. Common sense. :)

--
norm

08-Sep-07 01:02 PM

Makes a refreshing change here does not it Norm :)

08-Sep-07 01:06 PM

You have not looked very hard for such support. But, since you probably
don't use linux, why would you look for support? It is much easier to
make assumptions. If you download a free app for windows, might it have
support, even if it is just a faq or something similar?
My copy of kubuntu has access to thousands of programs through synaptic
in just the repositories. There are thousands more that can be found by
searching for what you might need.
Probably.
Even you have heard of linux. So it doesn't take an einstein to be aware
of it.
I would hope so.
Yup. Insert a disk, and follow prompts for basic setup, which will
generally satisfy most of the needs of your so called "average" user.
????.


--
norm

08-Sep-07 01:23 PM

With your constant lip service about it, why not?

08-Sep-07 01:27 PM

UK. He is good at bashing anything in the US, even though this clown is
living in the US at this time.>

08-Sep-07 01:39 PM

bashing, and it doesn't matter what it is or about, as long as he can
get his bash in on it. And believe it or not, the old *clown* is using
Vista,  and he has never seen or used Linux. How pathetic is that? How
can someone brainwash himself on something he has *never* seen or used?

08-Sep-07 01:49 PM

I agree with some of this. I disagree that Vista is that poor that there
will be a mass exodus from Windows. It is no worse and better than most
major new versions of Windows at first release. It is very different and has
a steep learning curve. It has some bugs and performance problems that
should be addressed. It has caused a lot of problems for software and
hardware vendors who can't figure out how to program for security. In my
opinion however it is the best major new version of Windows since NT. I
think the problem is that it has been a long time since a major new version
of Windows. A lot of people haven't experienced the joys of incompatibility
before.

The other point you make about Microsoft's policies creating a backlash is
very true. When you couple the frustration people are feeling about these
policies with the teething problems of a major version change the door is
opening for the competition. Unfortunately for the linux crowd I don't think
they will be able to take advantage of this. There is too much
disorganization with no clear vision of how to take advantage of this
opportunity. This goes back to my original point that for linux (or any
product) to succeed there initially needs to be one entity in charge and
they need to be draconian about it. I do see major opportunity for Apple to
gain market share. I also see a big opportunity for possibly Sun or maybe
even Corel to make some inroads into the Office market. The way OEM Office
2007 is being pushed as a trial on every OEM computer is causing a lot of
customer pain that may cause a backlash.

Your point about companies switching to linux is valid from a server
perspective but I don't see how this applies to the desktop. The backend of
the system is just a black box to the end users on a corporate network. They
don't care or probably even know what OS or what version of SQL is on the
servers. They do care about what is on their desktop. The cost of training
and overcoming employee resistance is the deciding factor here. I don't deal
with any very large companies, mostly smaller ones with 5 to 50
workstations. I just helped one company that has rapidly grown from around
ten workstations to sixty or so. They were switching from an outsourced
pop/imap email solution to Exchange. The technical portion of the switch
over was simple, quick, (a couple of days) and relatively inexpensive. They
are actually saving about $2,000 per month. The training and overcoming user
resistance to change took about four months and probably ate up the first
year's savings. It would be harder to change the corporate desktop to an
alternative OS than it would be to change home users. If home users changed
first then the corporate world would be much easier to change as there would
be far less resistance from the end users. With Vista being forced on home
users through the OEM channel by the time most companies are ready to change
a lot of the users will already be familiar with Vista and won't need a lot
of training.

--
Kerry Brown
Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
http://www.vistahelp.ca

08-Sep-07 02:07 PM

However, nobody at present owns the patent for the production of books.

So in the fullness of time, the M$ monopoly will inevitably be superseded.

Like books, knowledge of how to provide knowledge via a computer will
become common property, and not the property of a capitalist monopoly.

To be sure, in the early days of printing, books were restricted to those
who could afford them.

But as sure as night follows day, this will change.

So, the average computer user actually has a choice.

Even though M$ would wish to deny it.

Either be part of the past, or join the future.

08-Sep-07 02:30 PM

Denial is the sinking ship you are on, yet you refuse to admit it.
Your problem, now you live with it.
Frank

08-Sep-07 02:35 PM

There has been a choice for some considerable while as long as one was/is
either prepared to pay out more for Mac hardware, or get a barebones PC,
install Linux, and subsequently hit the biggest learning curve of all if
they are one time Windows users..

But the majority do not want either option presently.. as long as whatever
runs their favorite programs that they have gotten used to using since
'version 1', and it all works, that is what counts..

It is only hobbyists and 'upgraders' who are badly affected by Vista
pricing.. OEM system buyers are not, and they get a free printer..

MS may fall one day, but don't hold your breath..



--


Mike Hall
MS MVP Windows Shell/User
http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/

08-Sep-07 03:25 PM

On Sat, 8 Sep 2007 10:49:15 -0700, "Kerry Brown"


Which IS the problem! Why is it so ingrained with so many people that
the first release of Windows will always be garbage and you shouldn't
expect any better? You know the old saying. Fool me once, shame on
you, fool me twice, shame on me. The drumbeat that never stops is wait
till SP1 or SP2 or 3 or heck, just wait for the next new version of
Windows. My question is WHY should we have to? Why in the hell can't a
company the size of Microsoft with the talent they claim to have get
it right the FIRST time?


Total baloney. Show me ANYBODY that has trouble understanding what's
changed in Vista to the extend they can't figure out how to use it if
they were reasonably proficient with XP and I'll show you a dummy.

Hello Frank... yea you, that was your cue, you'd Exhibit A when it
comes to world class dummies.

08-Sep-07 03:40 PM

That is why Linux doesn't "sell", people don't want to get a free bit of
software and then pay for support especially when support is free from the
next door neighbor like it is for windows. Almost everyone knows someone who
will help with windows but hardly anyone knows someone who is knowledgeable
about Linux and even less for Ubuntu.

08-Sep-07 03:51 PM

The Apple OS is nothing like Linux.. its based on FreeBSD so there is no
Linux in the Apple OS at all.

Sun Solaris has a kernel similar to Linux.. not really surprising as Solaris
is based on SVR5 and Linus copied its predecesor to make Linux.
However the structure and resource management in Solaris is way ahead of
Linux as is its security model, the kernel is compartmentalised as required
by the DoD unlike Linux.

BTW you can get Solaris free from
http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/get.jsp if you want to see a Linux
killer.

08-Sep-07 03:58 PM

[Headers trimmed]

It's because the Linux platform is mostly half baked junk. The platform is
merely adequate for 3 things:

1. File serving
2. Web file serving
3. Sobbery at universities because is it overcomplicated and demands the use
of arcane command line commands which the snobs think their referring to
both establishes and proves their self-appointed "superiority".

But the truth of the matter is that Linux can't even get drag 'n drop right.

Saucy

08-Sep-07 04:23 PM

How exactly is it going to 'kill' Linux?

--
Kier

08-Sep-07 04:27 PM

Some sources for your statements might be appropriate. You are doing
yourself no favors with your comments.

--
norm

08-Sep-07 04:33 PM

Sure, pull the other one, it has bells on it. I have a friend who makes
a living with tech support for both Windows and Ubuntu. Just because
your "friends" take advantage of you and have you fix their Windows
boxes for free, doesn't mean everyone is a patsy.

--
Alias
To email me, remove shoes

08-Sep-07 04:56 PM

hahaha...yeah...of course you...lol!
Frank

08-Sep-07 05:42 PM

I agree it will change. I think we disagree on when or what will change
it. I also disagree that anyone has a monopoly on "knowledge of how to
provide knowledge via a computer". This knowledge is
actually very common and supersedes Microsoft. Microsoft has a monopoly on
selling Windows not on how to create an OS. They may use monopolistic
marketing techniques to get Windows on as many computers as they can. This
is part of doing business in a capitalist society. I am not expressing an
opinion whether I agree with this or think it is right. I am saying what I
think the current reality is. The future may have a linux based OS as the
main desktop for most computers but I don't think it will come to pass. I
think we are stuck with Windows until someone comes along with a new OS
that has something in it we all want/need/desire and currently don't have
or even know what it is we want/need/desire. All of the current OS' for
micro computers are too close to really say one is better. All we can
say is they are different and I prefer Windows/linux/OS X/Solaris/BSD,
whatever. It will take something new or someone with a lot of money for
marketing to knock Microsoft off the top of the heap.

--
Kerry Brown
Microsoft MVP - Shell/User

08-Sep-07 05:49 PM

<plonk>

08-Sep-07 05:47 PM

You charge your friends for a bit of help?
Do you have any left?

08-Sep-07 07:03 PM

Also, Linux, if a problem arises is fixable. Windoze on the other hand, can
have such serious problems that only a complete re-installation is an
option. (every try and fix a fscked-up Windoze registry?)

Cheers.

--
Remove Vista Activation Completely ...
http://tinyurl.com/2w8qqo

Do you use Linux? Everytime you "google", you're using Linux.

Coming Soon! Ubuntu 7.10 ... New Features:
http://lunapark6.com/ubuntu-gutsy-gibbon-710-new-features.html

08-Sep-07 07:13 PM

Yeah, diskpart then install Windows.

Saucy

08-Sep-07 07:14 PM

skipping over all the silliness and changes of subject ...


answer this

could Linux exist without Windows?  ;)

almost from day one .. you didn't hear Linux talked about without Windows
being somehow dragged into it.


Rich

09-Sep-07 10:33 AM

It's just another toy to play with in VMware.  Actually I have more
fun with the Windows 3.1 VM.




Why would you consider something that is so commonly done -- running a
Windows guest OS under a Linux host OS -- to be a "fairy tale"?




The real truth is that I'm prone to bouts of nostalgia, and VMware
has helped me give new life to boxes full of ancient Windows software.
Eventually I'm going to have Word for Windows 2.0 up and running.  w00t!




My laptop has Intel Graphics.



Why?  Even a misfit toy deserves an occasional hug.

08-Sep-07 07:26 PM

What's Windows?

Cheers.

--
Remove Vista Activation Completely ...
http://tinyurl.com/2w8qqo

Do you use Linux? Everytime you "google", you're using Linux.

Coming Soon! Ubuntu 7.10 ... New Features:
http://lunapark6.com/ubuntu-gutsy-gibbon-710-new-features.html

08-Sep-07 07:27 PM

You're right! Windoze is usally "fixed" by reinstalling.

Cheers.

--
Remove Vista Activation Completely ...
http://tinyurl.com/2w8qqo

Do you use Linux? Everytime you "google", you're using Linux.

Coming Soon! Ubuntu 7.10 ... New Features:
http://lunapark6.com/ubuntu-gutsy-gibbon-710-new-features.html

09-Sep-07 10:33 AM

The same could be said of viruses.  Wait.. MS-DOS will do for that.
No need for Windoze.  Nevermind.  :(

08-Sep-07 07:32 PM

Translation: Saucy just had his or her argument totally destroyed so she
or he runs away and hides behind the skirt of a plonk.

At the rate Saucy is going, all she or he will be able to do is post to
his or herself.

--
Alias
To email me, remove shoes

08-Sep-07 07:34 PM

It always has.


You mean, like "thank goodness I do not have to put up with Windows anymore"?

--
Alias
To email me, remove shoes

08-Sep-07 07:46 PM

Friends do not let Friends use Linux/Ubuntu

Just FYI.

08-Sep-07 07:47 PM

That sure showed him!  He will be running to Mommy now !

08-Sep-07 07:48 PM

Alias,

Why are not you telling everyone about the great features of Ubuntu?  You are
not doing your job!

08-Sep-07 07:49 PM

A bit of help, no. Hours of cleaning crap off a Windows box, hell yes,
with a strong, "boot into Ubuntu, fool!" after I give them the bill.
Some heed the advice and I don't see them for computer problems other
than "how do I do this in Ubuntu?", others don't and come back again and
again. All thank me and give me a big smile when their computer is fixed.

Letting/encouraging "friends" take of advantage of you is not true
friendship. Would you ask a friend who is a brain surgeon to operate on
your brain for free? Would you ask a friend who is a lawyer, plumber or
candle stick maker to work for you for free?

--
Alias
To email me, remove shoes

08-Sep-07 07:59 PM

You can stop auditioning. I am sure the fanboy club will welcome you
will open arms. They can always use one more chump to tow the party
line.

08-Sep-07 08:06 PM

On Sat, 8 Sep 2007 17:49:00 -0400, "Saucy"



Talk about idiots. This moron plonks as often as other people take a
bathroom break. True to form he needs to ANNOUCE that he plonked, yet
he's too damn stupid to leave any indication WHO he plonked.

Nothing special, Saucy is one of many members of the moronic fanboy
club. None of them have the sense to come in out of the rain.

08-Sep-07 10:19 PM

Why do you waste time posting the same post that is been posted by a few
dozen other trolls over the years?

09-Sep-07 02:34 AM

[...]

1) You may be mistaken with the "windows costs money" line of reasoning. See
right here: http://articles.tlug.jp/Windows_Is_Free

2) The wife just bought a laptop. It came with Windows on it. It just works.
Why would she go to the trouble of erasing a perfectly functioning OS just
to install another one? The apps that she likes (like OpenOffice or
Firefox) can be downloaded for Windows just as well as for Linux. What
motivation would she have to "switch"?


Just thinking out loud here...


-- S


--
http://www.sgeier.net
My real email address does not contain any "Z"s.

09-Sep-07 02:54 AM

You really think that you did not pay for it??
Its just that when you dont want windows, that they try to
force you to pay for it anyway.
We just had a consumer review of VISTA in Holland.
Microsoft was quite pissed off because of it.
Just try to install any upgrade (from openoffice,FF,TB etc)
after you have have used the computer for a while.
Customers in Holland were not pleased to say the least,
and the consumer organisattion advised to swith to XP,LINUX or APPLE.......

09-Sep-07 03:10 AM

With rather severe editing of the above, to focus in a few specific points.


I believe that the problem is going to be a difficult one. In this market,
there must be one major company 'owning' an OS sufficently that they can
invest major funds in marketing.
1. We know that MS offers significant price and other concessions to any
manufacturer who stays 'windows only'. So to gain a few short term sales in
the linux market, every pc they sell becomes more expensive. As long as the
computer makers compete so much on price, we are stuck. What we need os an
'oligopoly' of manufacturers to tell MS to (*&^ themselves. None have the
courage or the means to do it by themeselves.
2. If a superior OS did happen, and was owned and properly promoted, MS
would kill the company, directly like they did for Geoworks and DRDos, steal
the code, like they did for 'superstore/superspace', or simply buy the
company.

The reason that linux can survive is that nobody owns it. There is no one
party for MS to attack. Therefore the one thing that saves it, also prevents
it from becomming a dominant force on the OS business.

I think it is time for all of us to work for a change in the laws that MS
hides behind. Like maybe you can't copyright software that is not
guaranteed. Or, you can't copyright something that does not work prperly.
You have to put the teeth in the profitability part of it.
Telling/legislating that MS must guarantee/fix their product is a waste of
time - there is no alternative right now, and they won't bother fix it. If
there were competition, such as the auto or laptop computer industries, then
a guarantee works - if they offer a bad product you just go to the other
supplier. If MS faced the prospect of giving away windows until it worked
properly, they would smarten up very quickly.

Even if the US legislators and DOJ were not owned by MS, changes in approach
would be a hard sell because of all the foreign exchange and income tax MS
generates. (yes, the government profits from illegal activities). However,
those of us in other countries can make a difference - and we are dealing
with a company that is a drain on our foreign exchange, creates no
significant employment directly (I mean MS employees in the country), and
pays no or very little income tax to our government.
Perhaps we will have a world where MS owns the US but linux run the
computers in the rest of the world.

If this worked, I can see 2 significant benefits to all of us. MS only gets
paid if their software works, so we get versions of windows that work. And
when MS can't perform, then linux gets a fair chance.

Stuart

09-Sep-07 03:46 AM

Must be why you are here, right?  :)

you do not lie well

Rich

09-Sep-07 03:49 AM

Could Linux exist without viruses?

heh, weird mind at work there

and now MS-DOS gets dragged into it by the subject changer community

perfect execution of my theory, thank you


Rich

09-Sep-07 03:52 AM

now YOU are telling me what I mean?

heh

I guess that is the only way you can make your OS politics work?

Rich

09-Sep-07 04:21 AM

I have Solaris thanks, not used it much as I have not had much spare
time. I think I phrased the other comment ambiguously, I didn't mean the
Apple OS and Solaris are literally "Like" Linux although as you said
Solaris is somewhat similar, I meant they are both much different than
Windows but like Linux have a reasonable number of users. Although this
does not in any way support Linux directly it does mean that people who
use them can suggest "an" alternative to Windows to their associates. A
lot of people naturally think Windows is all there is.

Example, we have XP Pro on machines at work, I (and the IT guy)
generally set them for "Classic" menu. One woman insists we need to get
rid of that slow old thing because it only has Windows 98 on it, and
despite it rebooting with the XP Pro screen she insists we are lying and
it's really 98 because "She knows" what 98 looks like. :)

I am not sure about Sun offering a free Solaris, I grabbed a copy but
not sure why they did that...

09-Sep-07 04:22 AM

Wrong on all three counts, you really have no experience in this
industry do you :)

09-Sep-07 04:23 AM

That'll scare him ....

09-Sep-07 04:26 AM

Yes it does, I am using it right now.

09-Sep-07 04:29 AM

For me personally I see no reason to switch. However when it suddenly
decides she stole it and activation shuts it down there may be a very
good reason to switch.

09-Sep-07 04:33 AM

You mean the EAL4+ certs of several linux distros don't exist?


Yep, it is killing me to see such a pile of driverless software lying
around, unable to handle common hardware
Linux beats Slowaris hands down in several measures.

No thanks, I stay with the better system.
--
Support your local Search and Rescue unit -- get lost.

09-Sep-07 05:55 AM

Looked like a question to me. Can't you see the question mark at the end
of the sentence?


I guess you cannot read properly.

--
Alias
To email me, remove shoes

09-Sep-07 07:15 AM

Stuart

You don't have to legislate against anybody. Linux and all open source
programs are out there already. All free too. With what people paid for OEM
XP, after a couple of years, they have had their monies worth. So why don't
they download Ubuntu or PCLinuxOS, or order the CD?

My guess is that they probably think they will struggle with it, that they
will get complaints from family members that this or that no longer runs.

Look at the amount of posts here where people are complaining that Vista
changes over XP are too much for them. Imagine the family waking up to
Feisty Fawn. No more MSN Messenger or 'Barbie' program, different colors,
menus, games. Where is the start menu? Why doesn't the webcam work?

I know one or two that started with AOL and swear by it (not at it). They
would never change, free or not. People don't want free. They want what they
are used to running, and nothing too technical. Just turn it on and
everything is there, two mouse clicks away.







--


Mike Hall
MS MVP Windows Shell/User
http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/

09-Sep-07 07:24 AM

You really have a high opinion of computer users. NOT! MSN messenger
comes with GAIM in Ubuntu, btw.

--
Alias
To email me, remove shoes

09-Sep-07 10:36 AM

Snip--->>>>

Why
expensive,
increased

You sound very bitter as well as paranoid. Maybe your antenna are on too
tight? Lossening the straps might allow more blood flow to whatever
passes for a brain in your body.

Getting back to Linux vs Microsoft, it appears that the Linux people are
the ones terrified of Microsoft. Why are there so many anti Microsoft
messages in your Linux group? There is very little Linux advocacy
compared to Microsoft sucks messages.

With an operating system so *great* as Linux, surely you and the rest of
the tribe could find something positive to spout about Linux.

As for measuring Linux, look around and let us know what you see.
I see Windows everywhere and Linux virtually no place.

And speaking about numbers, it seems the Linux advocactes love to drag
out surveys that show Linux in good fashion (usually conducted by Linux
websites, magazines etc) but when it's the other way around the Linux
advocates start claiming Linux useage can't be measured.
Maybe not down to the very last CD but in general Linux HAS DONE
VIRTUALLY NOTHING to Microsoft's desktop domination in 10 years and it
doesn't look like it's doing any better today.

Face it, Linux is free and people are still running FROM it.

Imagine if Sandisk gave away free 30gb iPod clones. There would be riots
in the stores to get one and Sandisks useage numbers would go sky high.

Yet Linux is free, and you know the rest.
There's nothing simpler than a product that can't be given away.
Linux is that product.

The proof is in the reaction you dorks get when you take your act on the
road, outside the mental institution known as comp.os.linux.advocacy.
Normal people don't act like you clowns over in comp.os.linux.advocacy
do.

09-Sep-07 09:42 AM

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 03:22:43 -0500, Charlie Tame <charlie@tames.net>




Pointless to try to reason with closed-minded dopes like Saucy.

Fact: NASA picked Linux to help send it's rovers to Mars and a new
super computer running Linux is helping to design the next generation
space shuttle named Orion.

Guess what, no Windows anywhere in sight. Oops. Wouldn't want to have
a BSOD half way to Mars you know. ;-)

The Columbia cluster at NASA's Ames facility currently consists of
10,160 Itanium 2 chips running at 1.5 GHz. The cluster has a rating of
52 sustained teraflops, 61 teraflops peak and could be easily upgraded
to dual-core "Montecito" Itanium 9000 chips delivering more than twice
the oomph.

So that's more or less 52 trillion calculations per second.

09-Sep-07 09:54 AM

Your point is pointless. And again, have you ever used Linux you sorry
piece of trash?>

11-Sep-07 01:37 PM

Mr. Hall:

Well, the Europeans wanted the 'N' editions created and then on top of that
to punish Microsoft to the tune of hundreds and hundreds of millions of
euros in penalties .. so boo hoo. If the Europeans want a refund they can
ask the EU for all I care. Korea got in on the act too and Micorsoft had to
create special K verions (pun not intended).

Anyway, Microsoft has a suggestion box. If Vista pricing concerns you, go
ahead and tell them:

[Windows Vista Feedback - Microsoft]
http://feedback.windowsvista.microsoft.com/eform.aspx?productkey=winvista&mkt=en-us&backurl=http://support.microsoft.com/gp/cp_vista

*But*, Mr. Hall, Vista Home Basic at $89 USD does make for a good upgrade,
especially for families who could use the benefits of Parental Controls.

'Have a nice afternoon,
Saucy

11-Sep-07 03:27 PM

Wow, I thought Mike was bad - you are even worse!  (:o

--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

free speech rights under the First Amendment and is a cornerstone of the
creativity and innovation that is a hallmark of this country.  Consumer
rights in the digital age are not frivolous."
- Maura Corbett

11-Sep-07 05:08 PM

Honestly I think that another significant factor is that it hasn't really
been ready for any mainstream desktops until very recently.

Personally, had MS released Vista beginning of 2006 instead of 2007 and
I'd probably be using Vista right now and would never have looked at
Linux. Beginning of 2006 there were no viable alternatives. Ubuntu was
not as advanced as it is today and the same goes for other distributions.

Even this year, I struggled for a while to find a suitable Development
environment and dual booted with XP for the first few months for most my
programming work until Eclipse 3.3 with CDT 4 was released end of April.
That release, combined with Ubuntu 7.04 put the nail in the coffin and
sealed it for over 90% of my Windows usage. But that was what? 5 months
ago? A year ago I wouldn't have had that option and would have stuck with
Windows.

Now since the beginning of this year, I've used Ubuntu 6.10, 7.04 and I
am now using the Development version of 7.10 due to be released in
October. Now there is a key thing I notice in all of these releases:

Each release is a significant upgrade and a significant improvement. Each
release fixes some major issue, adds support for some major hardware,
makes life easier in some major way, etc.

7.04 Introduced the restricted driver manager which reduces the install
process for proprietary drives to simple point and click.

7.10 Introduces major upgrades to the X Server that provides the
graphics. All the graphics options are configurable via the UI now and
there is no more need to modify any configuration files with a text
editor. You can choose driver, screen resolution, etc. all from one
simple dialog and it automatically generates the necessary configuration
without ever seeing a text editor or command line. And, unlike previous
versions, it is also now able to recover from a bad screen configuration
instead of just dumping the user to a command line.

So what I'm seeing is all the things that many windows users complain
about when trying out Linux...go away. The community *is* listening, and
they are addressing the issues. And they are addressing it far faster
than the sloth like pace of Microsoft.

As I've said in another post, by the time MS will manage to release
Service Pack 1 for Vista, Ubuntu will be on it's 2nd or 3rd release since
the release of Vista already.

That is 2-3 complete OS releases VS one Service Pack.

I think the speed at which the Linux community is advancing and adapting
is something that a lot of people underestimate. Especially from a
distribution such as Ubuntu which does have commercial backing.

And as far as I am concerned, MS is beginning to become stagnant. Not
because they don't want to do anything, but because essentially they
can't.

I mean look at Vista, ok so they improved the UI over the XP and removed
the kiddie colors and hardware accelerated it. But what next? What's the
next major UI upgrade going to be the next release? A new color scheme?
One can only make a window so fancy, only make a button look so good, etc.

The search function is another thing. Ok fine, integrated search now.
Other than improving its performance, what else are they going to do
about it? Make it read the users mind?

Probably about the only area I can see where MS can still improve in is
Security, and that to me doesn't warrant a new version to windows. To me,
that's an obligation to MS' customers regardless of what version of
windows.

Beyond that, what other significant improvements are they going to add?
What new feature is supposed to be next to warrant the next windows
version? What's it going to do that XP or Vista don't when Vista already
barely does little more than XP does.

The same goes for office. I've yet to see anyone mention a *single* thing
anywhere that the new Office can do that the old office can't. New User
interface and that new file format is about the only thing that so far
I've discovered to be new about the new Office.

So what's the next office going to do? Another file format and yet
another user interface re-arrangement?

There are only so many ways to write text. There are only so many ways to
edit a spreadsheet, etc.

I think in many aspects MS is simply hitting or going to hit walls where
they just can't go much further and users aren't going to continuously
shell out more and more money for things that aren't anything more than
UI facelifts.

I doubt MS would have sold even a 10th of the copies of Vista they have
if it wasn't for the fact that they dominate the OEM PC retail channels.

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

君のこと思い出す日なんてないのは
君のこと忘れたときがないから

11-Sep-07 08:16 PM

And I can agree with what you say, however it does seem as if the
distributions are getting a little better.

What is a myth is that "Linux" is better on older hardware... and I
don't mean the kernel or "Core" of Linux as we might think of it but the
general term "Linux" as used by some in trying to make a point.

For example I have two machines that are quite old but Win XP, XP Pro
and 2003 server will all run on them. No speed records but they have
been tested as web servers, ftp servers, workshop "Juke boxes" and
various other forms of abuse :) On both Ubuntu runs VERY badly, Mandriva
simply falls on it's ass and dies and even Debian runs slowly although
it does install on one of them. Text based it would probably be fine,
but these systems are all "Linux" and so the comment I mentioned is
actually quite wrong.

I should say that the Windows test installs on these have both run 24/7
reliably with no restarts except where updates required it. Movie Maker
is pretty slow but works (eventually) as does VS2005.

11-Sep-07 08:34 PM

The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina DiBoy'


A Box of Rocks is a genius by comparison...

11-Sep-07 08:45 PM

I think you make some very valid points, and there is something I find a
bit aggravating. Items that were functional in XP and in familiar places
have been moved and that's about it as far as the user is concerned.
Now, some of the programming may be new but there are a number of things
that seem to have lost functionality. The MSDN version of Vista, where
XP has something decent to look at and read as it installs, instead has
a few screens that look hastily prepared and incomplete, and poor
quality. First thing you see looks half assed like nobody really cared.

12-Sep-07 05:07 AM

No. I set it up securely but I can't make them update security apps, not
use Emule, not download dodgy programs, etc.


One lives and learns. That said, with a hard ware firewall and the Gnome
Security Suite, it's millions of times more secure than Windows will
ever be.


Can you answer the question with an answer rather than trying to change
the subject with a question?

--
Alias
To email me, remove shoes

12-Sep-07 06:09 AM

No.. I answered it in the best way.. if you do not like the answer then it
says a lot about you.

12-Sep-07 04:36 PM

Ok now I'm curious...

Specs on said systems? =)

I mean I got Ubuntu running on a 5 year old Dell Inspiron 1100 with 256
megs ram (shared with video card)...and the laptop's owner is beyond
happy with it...

So I'm *really* curious as to what the specs are of the systems you are
experiencing problems with. =)

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

君のこと思い出す日なんてないのは
君のこと忘れたときがないから

26-Oct-07 02:00 PM

At this link, there is an interesting exerpt:
http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=117&tag=nl.e064

all rather than the capitalist free market. They don’t want to have to
fix anything; they want you to be ignorant of the options, if you have
any. They will make you “jump through hoops” to get support, and only
offer support during limited hours of the day and on certain days of the
week. Proprietary software companies ignore the change in society to a
24/7 time frame. They, like the governments and banks, operate like this
is the 1800s, not the 21st century."




--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

free speech rights under the First Amendment and is a cornerstone of the
creativity and innovation that is a hallmark of this country.  Consumer
rights in the digital age are not frivolous."
- Maura Corbett