Windows 7 - FAT32 compact flash boot drive

Asked By Judy

22-Mar-07 02:58 PM

Hello, all. I've got a problem getting my XPe image to run on a FAT32 CF
drive. When I download the image to _the same CF card_ when it is formatted
as an NTFS drive, it boots fine and FBA runs and all is happy. When I change
the CF card to FAT32, I get "disk error, press any key to restart" during
boot right after the BIOS info appears on the screen.

Perusing the documentation, it says that you can use FAT32 on a CF drive. It
also says you don't need to run bootprep since it is FAT32, not FAT16. Just
for grins, I ran bootprep on my CF card, and that made it even worse (boot
just completely hung without even the "disk error" message appearing).

I'd like to use FAT32 instead of NTFS in order to reduce write-cycles on the
CF drive. Paging is already turned off.

Any ideas on what I'm missing. As I said, when it's NTFS all is kosher;
FAT32, no happiness.

This is XPe with SP2 and the QFE rollup from Feb 2007. To get an idea of all
the included components I have, the macros used in Target Designer include
(and I've selected all the elements from each macro):
devices generated from tap.exe
Server Printing Support
TCP/IP Networking with Client For MS Networks (yeah, I know it's
redundant but I haven't removed it yet)
TCP/IP Networking with File Sharing and Client For MS Networks
Terminal Services
Windows XP Explorer User Interface
WinLogon Sample Macro (all elements except Standard PC - it's an ACPI PC)

Thanks,
Judy

22-Mar-07 03:03 PM

Forgot to mention - no EWF since there is no other drive in the system and
data must be maintained across boots.

22-Mar-07 03:37 PM

Judy,

A quick question - how did you partition and format your CF to FAT32?
Did you do that on the target device or not?

--
=========
Regards,
KM

22-Mar-07 03:52 PM

I have XP Pro loaded on a hard drive that I connected to the target device
and booted from. I used the standard format in XP to format the CF, both when
I formatted it as FAT32 and as NTFS.

22-Mar-07 06:17 PM

Sounds like simple MBR problem to be.

I have always found it easier to use a WIN98 boot floppy/USB stick and a
tool like aefdisk (or even fdisk/format) to prepare a CF for booting to
FAT16/32 partitions. There are plenty of disk image sites on the net if you
do not have a PC lying around running WIN98 to create a boot disk from.

Regards,

Stuart

22-Mar-07 07:13 PM

I should actually ask you more specific question. How exactly you formatted it in FAT32? What command(s) did you use?

Did you repartition the disk? (you didn't need to but you could) If you did, try fixing the MBR (e.g., using MbrFix tool -
http://www.sysint.no/en/Download.aspx).

--
=========
Regards,
KM

23-Mar-07 07:09 AM

Stuart and KM,

I agree that it's an MBR problem but I haven't been able to fix it. I've
partitioned using fdisk and formatted from a FreeDOS boot, formatted from XP
Pro (both the UI format that appears on the context menu and format from the
command prompt), formatted from a BartPE boot, and partitioned and formatted
from the tools on the UtlimateBootCD.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to a Win98 system to try Stuart's
suggestion. I'll try the MbrFix tool that KM suggested and report my results.

23-Mar-07 07:41 AM

No joy. I used MbrFix while booted under Windows XP off my regular hard drive
- my CF appears as my D drive when booted this way. The "listpartitions"
MbrFix command shows:

1  Yes        3917     11  WIN95 OSR2 32-bit FAT
2                    0       0  None
3                    0       0  None
4                    0       0  None

Since XP thinks the CF is removable, I can't get any output from diskpart.

More details: the CF card is a SanDisk 4.0GB CompactFlash. Just a plain
ordinary one, not an Ultra or Extreme. The target is an Advantech PCM-3380
single board computer (Pentium-based Intel chipset, CF Type 1 slot on the
secondary IDE controller)

23-Mar-07 07:53 AM

Even more data - if i take the CF card that didn't boot after running MbrFix,
run convert under XP to change to NTFS and then boot from the CF, it works
perfectly.

Steps:

CF NTFS boots and runs

boot under XP with CF as non-boot drive
use UI format to reformat CF (d:) as FAT32
copy all XPe image files to d:

boot from CF - "disk error"

boot under XP with CF as non-boot drive
MbrFix /drive 1 fixmbr

boot from CF - "disk error"

boot under XP with CF as non-boot drive
convert d: /fs:ntfs

boot from CF - FBA is running as we speak

23-Mar-07 08:17 AM

It's generally not a good idea to run FBA on a flash disk as it
decreases the life of the flash. What most people do is perform FBA on
a hard drive and copy finished image to the flash drives.

For the same reason it is better to disable the page file and switch
off any logging if you are not using EWF.

--
-Mike

23-Mar-07 08:39 AM

I know this one CF is getting the crap beat out of it. This is my
ghost the CF drive and copy it onto the production CF drives that will be put
in the user's systems. The drive cabling options are very limited with the
target system I'm running and I'm trying to avoid destroying another IDE
cable (2 have already bitten the dust) with all the plugging and unplugging
as I switch drives around. Replacing a CF card is easier than getting these
cables from the manufacturer.

As I said earlier, paging is disabled in the image and no system / event
logging is active.

Hmmmm, just had the thought. I wonder if I can get a regular hard drive to
boot with FAT32. If I can do that, I can ghost the image and put it on the
CF. That should copy the MBR and anything else in the bowels of the disk
partition. Off I go...

Judy

23-Mar-07 08:53 AM

I would confirm it will run FBA on an IDE drive with FAT32, if that
runs fine then image to the CF.

23-Mar-07 02:44 PM

Success, relatively. I'm able to build the image on  a regular FAT32 hard
drive, then ghost it to a CF. The CF then boots into XPe without a problem.
I'm still not happy about the hard drive switching I'll have to do (theses
cables die easily as they get pulled on and off), but it's a wark-around to
the original problem.

Judy

23-Mar-07 03:20 PM

Judy,

From your report I can only think of one thing. Is your card marked as fixed or removable?

From what you wrote below it sounded it is still removable. Then some behavior (e.g., FAT32 boot) could be unpredictable.

--
=========
Regards,
KM

23-Mar-07 03:50 PM

I believe removable - it has never been "not removable" in all the different
ways I've booted it. I've made all the selections / settings / config options
I could find on the web that talk about different ways to make it fixed and
none of them made a difference. SanDisk doesn't make any tools to modify
their CF drives, so I'm stuck with how it is.

I have found a workaround (see above) that solves the end problem of getting
a FAT32 CF to use in our production systems, but it's not ideal since it
requires drive swapping on the target machine. It seems like FBA just doesn't
want to run on a removable FAT32 CF.

I'm willing to keep trying ideas but I'm not hopeful one will be found.

Thanks for your help KM, and you as well Stuart,
Judy

24-Mar-07 12:05 PM

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:50:05 -0700, JudyL


We use SanDisk CF cards for prototyping because they are cheap and
readily available. We have the utility from SanDisk which changes
their attribute from removable to fixed. I format them as NTFS and run
FBA on them all the time, as our product device cannot connect to a
HDD. CF cards so identified are able to be partitioned and formatted
using the Windows Disk Management applet, and also by the third-party
utility program Partition Magic.

So SanDisk did provide this utility at some point in the past. When I
joined the XPe project about a year ago, the utility was alread
present. I don't know who got it or how they did it.

TAZ

25-Mar-07 06:49 PM

SanDisk utility was available via NDA. So therefore it should not be
floating around anywhere but needs to be acquired from SanDisk directly.
Further to this from memory SanDisk was/is getting out of the industrial
flash business so have discontinued distribution of this utility via NDA or
any other method.

Regards,

Stuart

25-Mar-07 06:55 PM

Hi Judy,

Firstly there aren't any selections / settings / config options to change
the removable/fixed disk setting without using a manufacturer specific
utility to modify the cards firmware.

Secondly, I have been able to get the FBA process to run on a removable CF
without problems, provided I have not attempted to distribute the image over
more than one partition. The removable/fixed issue does not arise until
windows itself is up and running, and from memory your issue is at boot
time.

Regards,

Stuart

25-Mar-07 07:06 PM

Although this is the conventional wisdom, I've got a collection of CF cards
here I have beenn builtind test systems on. At at guess each one would have
had say 200+ FBA runs each, and all still run without missing a beat. How
big the internal free sectors remaining list used for replacing damaged
sectors is I don't know, but they seem to last a lot longer than most people
think.

Regards,

Stuart

27-Mar-07 07:03 PM

You remember correctly - the problem is, after loading the image on the card,
it won't boot and run FBA. The thing I find interesting is that it is only on
FAT32 CF cards. I can take the non-booting FAT32 card, convert it to NTFS,
and it boots and runs FBA just fine. It's only that first FBA boot that won't
work. If I build the image on a "regular" FAT32 (which works ok) then ghost
that image to the CF card, the CF card will boot XPe correctly. Removable
FAT32 is the problem, apparently.

Judy

28-Mar-07 09:40 PM

I know you might already have a solution, but just in case you don't....

If you put only the MBR on the CF card, that has an entry for the active
partition but you don't actually put the FAT32 partition on the card, what
error do you get?

My thinking here is trying to identfy if it is the BIOS loading of the MBR
that is choking or the MBR loading of the BPB that is the problem.

Also, when you say you convert a non working FAT32 card to NTFS, how do you
do this? bootprep or through windows disk management?

Ciao

29-Mar-07 07:48 AM

I don't have a "real" solution i.e. one that lets me copy my image to a CF,
boot and run FBA. My current solution is load my image to a "rea" hard drive,
boot, FBA, and ghost. I don't like this one because of cable swapping on the
target. It's easier to get a new CF when I kill it with write cycles than it
is to replace cables.


I'll have try that - I've always had both the MBR and the partition on the
CF. May take a few days - I'm tied up on another issue right now.


drive

29-Mar-07 05:58 PM

Ok let me know you you go when you get a chance to check if the mbr is
working correctly.

In "convert d: /fs:ntfs", is d: the CF card attached via USB reader or
attached via CF to IDE converter?

Regards,

Stuart

30-Mar-07 06:56 AM

It is in a built-in slot (the target is a single board computer) that is
seen as the secondary IDE controller by the BIOS i.e. the BIOS sees the CF as
a hard drive during its power-up sequence.  Short answer - on-board converter.

03-Apr-07 09:18 AM

Stuart,

This is going to take longer than I expected to resume my experiments. Now
that I've got time again to play with this, we've had 3 out of 4 of our
target boards (the ones with the CF slot) fail in the last week. The h/w guys
are using the one still functioning to debug the custom PCI hardware that is
the point of this whole mess. That has higher priority than chasing a problem
we have already have a "decent" solution to.

It'll be a week or two until we get repaired boards back, so .... back into
the holding pattern.

Judy

03-Apr-07 07:15 PM

No Problems.

When you get around to it if you're having problems booting into DOS to
format the drive you might want to look at a USB boot solution. There's a HP
utility to create USB boot disks you can Google for.

If all else fails I can send you bootable image for your CF that uses
FAT.... we can work that out offline.

Regards,

Stuart

11-Apr-07 02:18 AM

Hi,

I've been given the sandisk utilities from a distributor and had didn't sign
any NDA.
Don't understand why Sandisk want a NDA or make it difficult to access,
since it can only benefit them
So here it is available from my web site:
http://www.ete.com.au/downloads/dmaonoff.zip
http://www.ete.com.au/downloads/atcfwchg.zip

Rob.

12-Apr-07 03:46 PM

On Apr 11, 8:18 am, Robert Gallesio <Robert

I think, there was an other tool for the older cf cards, wich was
called ntcfwhcg. Depending on serial- or partnumber you had to use the
ntcfwhcg or the atcfwhcg. ntcfwhcg was for the older (slower) light
blue CFs, and atcfwhcg was for the newer and faster ones (Ultra, Ultra
2) wich have the black color.

You shouldn't provide the tools on your webserver without checking
back with sandisk or your distributor. I think your distributor singed
that NDA - since there was no other way, to get these tools.

As I remember, I used the old cfs from sandisk on advantech boards
too, and they worked without problems, even as they have been marked
as removeable device and with FAT32. Just EWF didn't work correctly,
since it couldn't create its partition.

Steffi

25-Apr-07 12:02 PM

For the sake of completeness in the archives, I have found the problem. To
recap, I have a CF card that comes with NTFS on it. After using the XP format
(right click on the disk) while booted from an XP hard drive to convert the
CFD disk to FAT32 and then copying the image files created by TD to the CF,
FBA would not run when the system was booted from the CF. However, if the
same image files were put on a "regular" hard drive, FBA run successfully,
the drive ghosted and then that ghost copy put on the CF card, then the CF
card would boot successfully into XPe. Running mbrfix, bootprep, fdisk didn't
help the situation. For details on all the contortions gone through to
attempt to make it boot FBA, read the other posts in the thread.

The problem was the use of the format command. I used a disk editor to
examine the boot record of the FAT32 partition, comparing the booting XPe CF
and the failing FBA CF boot. It turns out that the format command was
changing the value at offset 0x40. To quote Technet:

offset:   0x40
size:      BYTE
value:    0x80
desc:     Physical Drive Number . Related to the BIOS physical drive number.
Floppy drives are identified as 0x00 and physical hard disks are identified
as 0x80, regardless of the number of physical disk drives. Typically, this
value is set prior to issuing an INT 13h BIOS call to specify the device to
access. It is only relevant if the device is a boot device.

The XP format changed this value from 80 to 00, hence FBA wouldn't boot from
a "floppy." I guess format considers anything removable to be a "floppy."
Unfortunately, I don't have a USB drive to try and see what it does with a
USB drive. Using the disk editor to change this back to 80 allowed FBA to
run. Apparently, none of the tools I tried in the course of trying to fix
this issue change this value. Removing and re-adding the partition also
didn't change the value.

FYI

Judy

25-Apr-07 12:02 PM

Finally got my hardware back yesterday and have been looking at this. I found
the problem - see my post at the "root" of this thread.

Thanks for your help!!
Judy

13-Jan-10 07:09 PM

hi Judy,

would you send me the Sandisk Utility. i have problems trying to get the Sandisk CF from removable to fixed. i am trying to boot my board via CF through a IDE to CF adapter. Thanks